Learning SEO from Trusted Resources with Alex Harford

Sarah McDowell 0:06

based in Chester in the UK in: 2023

Alex 1:44

Hello.

Sarah McDowell 1:46

How are you doing?

Alex 1:48

Not too bad. Thanks. I've got a bit of a cold today. But I think I think I'll be able to get through the podcast just fine.

Sarah McDowell 1:54

Thank you for soldiering on. And thank you for coming on to the podcast. Very, very excited to talk about this topic. And with your illness, because obviously you were talking beforehand that you were not feeling the best. Maybe that will work well. Because you know, whiskey podcast invoice, but bit croaky.

Alex 2:17

Who knows? Who knows? I mean, I think like most people, I don't like the sound of my own voice. So I don't know, maybe I'll listen back to it and think, oh, yeah, that sounds good.

Sarah McDowell 2:26

I don't think anyone likes listening to their own voice. And I remember talking to a voice coach one time, and it's because you hear your voice differently. You're talking every day, because of like you're inside your body, which is a weird thing to say. But obviously, it's gonna sound different when you hear recordings, because it's because it sounds different to what you hear day in day out. You're like, oh, I don't like that. But yeah. But So today's topic is how to learn SEO from trusted resources. A very important topic, very important topic for our audience. So let's to kick us off. What does the term trusted resources mean? And why is it important?

Alex 3:20

To me, it's an author or publisher, I've come to trust over time. So I think most would be a really good example. I've read Moz it was called SEO Moz. When I started in SEO, and use its tools for over 15 years, say, SEO mindset as well, it's become a trusted resource for me, because you and Tazmin speak from personal experience as the guests. So from listening to your podcasts, sort of learning about your way through that I can tell you coming from a good place. So that trust branches out into other things you could do. It doesn't have to be career related or SEO related search, I think of one of my hobbies, I really enjoy hiking. And there are certain brands of map and hiking guide books I've come to trust over the years because if I don't trust them, or if there's something wrong in one of those guides or maps, it could put me in a dangerous position when I'm out in the mountains or the wilderness. So it's just something that we've we've come to trust, I'd say I've imagined most of us have got at least a few trusted sources, whatever the topics are video game reviews, could be another a couple of websites, I trust video game reviews, because they kind of align with what I think about games and they seem to pick up on some of the negatives that perhaps I wouldn't like in games like if a game is wasting your time. I sort of hate feeling like that. So yeah, I think they're just resources that we've come to trust over the years. And yeah, what why are they important? Especially on why so much misinformation, outdated content bias contents, there's a massive extra influx thanks to a less generative content from the likes of chat GPT, and so on, people are just spamming online. So it's really difficult to know where to look and who to trust. And say, especially for new stos, but a lot of experience SEOs to myself included. So if there's a topic I don't know much about, yeah, times, I can find it quite overwhelming trying to find this have the right information and figure out whether I can sort of trust it. We've got our own biases as well. So cognitive biases are shortcuts our brain uses to try and make our lives easier. And they can affect our perceptions of content and lead us to trust in content that perhaps we shouldn't. Yeah, I think so with that, with that kind of knowledge. I think it's especially interesting from how our brains work, it can help us figure out of who and what content to trust. So, first of mentioned, from my own perspective, at salience and creating that technical SEO academy that you were introduced me whether at the start, I could have just provided a list of trusted sources, first of new SEO executives that start, but I thought rather than someone relying on a list of just resources I give to someone, whether it's people or publishers, if I sort of give people the knowledge on figuring out how to find their own trusted sources, and what they can trust, I think that sort of prepares people much better for the future.

Sarah McDowell 6:45

And I suppose a big thing that I was learning when I was new to SEO is, yes, it's, you need to know what trusted resources are and where you can find them. But you also need to think, okay, when it comes to SEO, it's not always a one size fits all. And not everything that you read is going to be verbatim or like, things that you read online. That advice coming from someone's particular experience, or someone's particular they've been working on a project or how they found it. So I think, yes, trusted resources is important and knowing where to go to, but it's how you take that information in as well. So for example, it took me a while to sort of okay, once I'm learning something, or I've been asked to do something that's new, or I'm trying to implement something that's out of my comfort zone, rather than just taking it for Batum, from what I've read, is testing it and trying it out for yourself as well.

Alex 7:58

Yeah, definitely. I agree if there's anything that we can do to try things yourself, and yes, I mean, I feel quite lucky. The fact I used to be a web developer before I was an SEO and sort of kind of accidentally got into SEO. And while I say it's not necessary for SEO to learn how to code, I do think it's a really good advantage if you have your own website, and you can try some of these things out yourself and sort of build build up a bit of a knowledge base and you had what's worked and what hasn't worked?

Sarah McDowell 8:33

Is that clear? Exactly. Because then until you've tried something out for yourself, and it might be different, because all websites are different, aren't they all websites have their own issues? Or websites have their own challenges? And you just need to try stuff out and see what happens.

Alex 8:53

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's a good example, mentioning other websites, because I have some clients I work with who they will look at perhaps the biggest of name in their industry. And they'll want to copy what they do on their website. And the website might have a really bad navigation, and it might be really difficult to find the products that you need. Because they are ranking first or second for these major keywords on Google. A lot of people think well, we should just copy what they do. But no, they're perhaps ranking up there because they're such a big brand. You know, you've got a lot of high street brands in the UK, and they've got that history. So even if the website's really poor, I won't mention any names. They can they can still rank up there sometimes with some sort of really bad of SEO on the website. I mean that there will be things on the site that are good. Yeah, so yeah, I think always think about those things critically. And if you can just try them out yourself on your own website.

Sarah McDowell: 10:00

When we're reading, and we're learning from like resources that we find online, is there ways that you can think more logically when you're considering information is there like strategies and tactics that you can implement there?

Alex: 10:16

Yeah, so I mentioned cognitive biases didn t so that they are ways our brain tries to simplify things to make our lives easier. So, for example, some of us might commute to work the same way every day. And they'll come a stage where we'll just do most of that commute on autopilot, or we might not even remember it. Things like driving a car or riding a bike, playing a certain piece on a musical instrument, it becomes second nature with practice. So they're beneficial ways, our brain makes things easier for us. So you know, we don't have to think as much and we don't have to use as much brainpower. But those shortcuts the brain makes can sort of causes issues sometimes as well. So that there's sort of, there's quite a lot of cognitive biases as sort of five, I sort of think are worth mentioning today. Yeah. So when we're looking at content, so you know, content can be anything, just video, a tweet, or whatever they are called these days or an article. And we one of the cognitive biases is we're more likely to believe people we see as authority figures. So the CEO or head of a company, for example, we're more likely to believe what they say, and whether it's right or wrong. If I put it to the SEO industry, I'll I'll pick on John, you know, I think, great for the poor John. Sure. She won't mind. But yeah, I think is great for the industry as a whole world. But because he's the main public face of Google. And you know, Google is by far the biggest search engine in the world. We all sort of look at his anything he posts like said, whether it's a tweet or something else. And because he works for Google, we might just think, oh, that's gospel, we sort of just believe what he says, because he's got that authority that he works for Google. And that's actually called or authority bias where we might believe whatever he says. So I do think sometimes, SEOs will take things he says to literally, yeah, so I don't know. Like, I don't know if he might have mentioned the bold text at some point. And then you got a load of SEOs who started bolding bits of text and the content. You know, just to try and rank better in Google. But if you sort of think about it logically, well, just the bold tags help the reader to read the content. There so so authority bias is one of the big ones I'd say.

Sarah McDowell: 12:56

And I definitely, I can see myself falling into that trap. Because there's definitely there's people that you look up to, or there's people that you aspire, especially because I've been working in SEO for around 10 years. I think it's over 10 years now. Which kind of goes to like, show my age a little bit, maybe not. But yeah, there's definite people that I would have taken because I've got respect, or I see them as authoritative or knowing you do just take things for verbatim, and then you just do them without testing or actually trying to Outfest. So for example, with the bold text, maybe you wanted to do maybe a better way of dealing with that situation is you read that advice from John. But rather than spending all your time and efforts, adding bold text to all the pages or all your important pages, you take one page, you do the thing that's been suggested, and then you measure it right. And then you see okay, is it is it worth my time and resources to implement on other pages?

Alex: 14:05

Yeah, perhaps. Yeah, I would always think from a usability perspective, and never think an SEO change should make user experience worse. So yeah, I would always just look at it and think Is this making the content more difficult to read? So you can maybe bold little bits of text here and there so people can scan? You know, scannable easily when they're looking at content, but some people just went way over the top and just started bolding. Everything where it's an every sentence and that sort of thing. And it just didn't didn't read very well at all.

Sarah McDowell: 14:37

But then that's it, isn't it? So part of SEO? It's not just about ranking in Google is it or getting traffic to your pages? It is about user experience, because Google cares about their users at the end of the day. We've also got things like EA I always feel silly saying that because they always add on new ease don't though, but I suppose whatever advice so that you're you're given, just make sure that you test it first. And when you test it, don't just test it to see if it ranks better or you get more traffic. There's other things that you need to test as well, like your UX usability. What? Yeah, like you said, with the bold text, for example, like, what does that do for people reading and stuff? So always, always test I think, is what we're saying. So, learn, do your research, but always test what you find out.

Alex: 15:33

Yeah, definitely. And think critically. And, and also, we all make mistakes. So everything John Mueller says isn't always going to be 100%. Correct. Which is fine. You know, we all make mistakes. I think as long as we learn from them that that's fine. So I think it's another thing to just accept that people will make mistakes. And you know, we should always be kind when people do.

Sarah McDowell: 15:56

We're all human. We're all human. Yeah. Until AI takes over. And then yeah, but that's another kettle of fish. Right. Let's talk. Let's take sorry, let's take a short break. And we'll continue with this topic. After we're back with part two. We are back with part two. So we hope you enjoyed that short break. And yes. So in part one of the podcast, we were talking about the different biases that we had. And Alex went into detail about authority bias. So Alex, is that other biases that we need to be aware of?

Alex: 16:39

Yeah, there's, I think four more probably mentioned if we've got time, so there's another called the bandwagon effect. So if an SEO tactic or something trends on Twitter, or tick tock, for example, we're more likely to believe it, just because it's trending, irrespective of who shares it. So it might not even be someone we think of as a trusted source and the SEO industry, we just see, oh, that's got hundreds of shares, and likes and so on. And we sort of more likely to believe it. Sort of another similar one to that is something called tribalism. So I imagine some people, even if they don't know about these biases, also be guessing already, what what what some of these are, and so if most of a peer group we're in believes something, then we're more likely to go with the tribe. So say, I don't know, we're in a group of 25 SEOs and say, 20 of them believe that subfolders are better to have blogs, structures, and rather than a subdomain, than even if evidence is presented, so it doesn't make any difference, or a subdomain is better. We're just more likely to go with the tribe, you know, the majority of those of 20 people.

Sarah McDowell: 17:51

Is that is that because I think as humans, we don't want to stand out, do we? Or not that we don't want to stand out but we want to fit in? Or we wanting unity? Or we want to feel like we're part of something so in that example, because the so talk about some folders, subdomains? Like you're more likely to go with what the tribe thinks, because you want to be part of the tribe, and you don't want to go against what the tribe saying.

Alex: 18:21

Yeah, that's it. I mean, in a way, it's kind of similar to authority bias as well, or, yeah, sort of seems to me, I'm not a scientist. But yet, we kind of believe in those people in authority and a tribe. Well, that's kind of authority in itself anyway, isn't it? Because there's a lot of people who are believing that that same thing. So another cognitive bias is called confirmation or reinforcement bias. So that means we might believe something, such as the output from a test or case study, because it's what we already believe. So if we already believe subfolders, that Edom subdomains for hosting blogs on for example. And we see a study that says sub folders are better than subdomains? We might not even look at that study properly. It just reinforces what we already believe. So we think I yeah, I already believe so. We don't look at that critically because of that. And that can happen in our own testing as well. So we could interpret results as how we want them to appear. You know, sort of, I wouldn't necessarily necessarily say fiddling with the data, but data can be used to show different things content. So kind of unconsciously, we could also run a sub folders, vi subdomains blog tests, for example, and subfolders comes up. That's better. What it may or may not be in the data that we have. So it's it's another good one to be aware of, I think.

Sarah McDowell: 19:49

Yeah. And I think when you're running tests, or you're doing research or so if you're going to be looking for stuff to backup what you want it to backup or you're going to be Looking for reinforcement, like you say, and I've done that so many times without sort of, okay, really testing or doing a test before in a test after. Because if you look for metrics that are going to help back up what you're saying, then of course, you're going to find them. And vice versa. Like if you want data to back up that what you did before, didn't work as well, then you're gonna find that as well, aren't you?

Alex: 20:27

Definitely. Yeah, yeah.

Sarah McDowell: 20:30

Yeah, what's there? Is there any more? Is there any more biases?

Alex: 20:34

There are lots more, but I'll just mention one more. Myriam Jessier also has a video about cognitive bias when considering content. So I think we've both mentioned a couple of different ones. And she'll talk about in a different way. So so that's where we can off pack and share the link to that for your for your show notes. Thank you. I would like to mention this called the illusory truth effect. So that means we're more likely to believe something if we repeatedly see it talked about, even if it's not something we believed initially. So it could be an SEO myth. So there are lots of SEO myths out there right now. So something like Google penalises duplicate content as an SEO myth that many SEOs believe. And you know, that could be because it's out there on the internet all over the place. So they could have just seen and heard that myth so much that they've started to believe it, even if perhaps their own testing shows that Google doesn't penalise duplicate content. I mean, of course, duplicate content can cause problems for a website, but Google don't penalise it.

Sarah McDowell: 21:40

Yes. And that's a so knowing the difference between it can hurt you compared to Google penalising you is two different kettle of fishes, isn't it? Yep. Yeah. Ah, so I wouldn't I wouldn't have started that myth off, then.

Alex: 21:59

Well, perhaps I think Google did penalise duplicate content. In the past, there was the Panda update, which targeted things. So at some point, it was penalised, I think, but I don't think Google penalises duplicate content anymore. The other ways, websites for that kind of thing.

Sarah McDowell: 22:20

And that's just made me think that obviously, Google is always changing how it does things, isn't it? It's always changing its algorithms. It's always changing what it's looking at. And I mean, it can be a bit of a nightmare for stos, keeping up to date with everything that's going on. But that's a really good point, isn't it? So things in the past might have been the case. But things change, right. And I suppose there's a question how, how do you know? Or how can you keep up to date with that kind of stuff like, so where it's recommendations that are outdated, and then they don't? They're not around anymore? How can you keep up to date with that?

Alex: 23:05

I'd say, maybe look at the date that the article was published. I don't know if that's too obvious and answer it when it won't always be the right probably stay on an article, of course, but I think it's just keeping up to date. So seeing what people are sharing, sort of more recently, looking at Google's official documentation, they do tend to be sort of quiet Gordon putting the dates on their own documentation on when when it was last updated. So yeah, I think just all of these different biases we have just thinking about them all and sort of thinking about things more critically. I mean, it's kind of difficult because a lot of SEOs will share old content or will still say, you know, Google penalises content, so there are SEOs that still say that. So I think it's kind of the whole thing, just thinking of it as a whole. And just just being aware that something might be outdated. And you can ask in other people, looking at a range of sources don't just rely on one resource just looking around.

Sarah McDowell: 24:10

I suppose as well, and leads back into what we're saying earlier is always like test stuff. And so once you've read something, rather than just taking it for gospel, so say, for example, we take this thing of like duplicate content is an issue because Google penalises you, like if you read that before, then be like, Oh, crikey, we need to work on all our pages, make sure that we've got no duplication and we need to spend all our time and energy, slow that process down, take a step back, because something that I've done is I'm a Panikkar. I'm a warrior, right? As soon as I read something, and I'm like, Oh, is that an issue? I jumped straight into it, rather than taking a step back, looking at the pages, because you'll know if Google's penalised you for something Won't you? And you can do some digging in Google Search Console, you can look at traffic, you can look at Screaming Frog crawl is current you like for that specific penalisation? Is that even a word?

But yeah, like, there's always ways that you can dig and find out first rather than because you don't, you don't want to panic or the people in your company, you don't want to panic your boss stakeholders is take a step back first. And you also you don't want to waste time or resource. Because there is only so much time that you've got in a working day, haven't you, like you need to prioritise. So you might put all your efforts into this one thing that you've read, when in actual fact, it's not an issue, and you could have spent it on something else?

Alex: 25:55

Yeah, definitely. I think that's a good thing to bring up as well. And we all are different personalities, aren't we? So if you are someone that jumps into things, then perhaps you are the kind of person that does need to think about things a little bit beforehand, a little bit more than maybe some other people will be like that. That's just fine, isn't it? Because we are all different? So yeah, I think another thing that helps us consciously connect new information to things that you already know as well. So we've got knowledge in our head, haven't we, if we've been in SEO for a month, or 10 years, we've got we've got existing knowledge and a had, from what we've already learned and what we already know. So a lot of the time, you can connect that to allow something new to what you're already nervous. I'm trying to think of an example. But maybe if someone has said I'll put all the keywords for your page and the URL, right. But if you already know that content, written content, stuffed with keywords is a bad thing, then you can use that knowledge to think well, maybe stuffing all these keywords in a URL isn't a good thing, either.

Sarah McDowell: 27:04

Yeah, and there's definite like, experience that comes with this isn't there or your gut feeling. So for example, I know if there's, if there's anything that's a bit suspicious, or you're trying to game the system to rank, then that is not going to bode well, in the long run that you might get some instant successes. But then over time, like you might be caught out or Google My bring out a new update that deals with that specific thing. But I think at the core, as SEOs, you know what you should be doing? And if there's anything that feels a bit iffy to you, or anything that makes you feel like, Oh, am I trying to game the system here? Chances are you probably are right.

Alex: 27:54

Yeah, definitely. I completely agree. Yeah. And also, just going back to what we were saying earlier about usability, SEO shouldn't make usability worse. Yeah.

Sarah McDowell: 28:04

100%, 100%. And that's something that I always try and make sure that I'm always thinking about and relaying back to whoever I'm working with is that, like, user experience? Is, is important, like Google, SEO should never get in the way of that it should never hinder how someone views or like someone's experience of the page at the end of the day, should it?

Alex: 28:32

Definitely, yeah,

Sarah McDowell: 28:34

you don't want to turn people away. Right? We are running out of time, sadly. So there's a few questions that I want to squeeze in before we have to end. So first question, Alex. sum up the main takeaway from today's episode in one sentence, or I could give you two or three if you really need it.

Alex: 28:57

Yeah, maybe two or three might have said this already. But I think when when we're taking in new information, especially if there's a lot of information, it can be quite overwhelming. So I'd say when you're looking at content, whatever it is, just consider one of these cognitive biases at a time. And see if that reframes what you're thinking of the content. And eventually, that becomes second nature. And you can maybe start looking at another cognitive bias you have and it doesn't just help in SEO, I think it helps in life in general, any sort of content you're consuming. And so think about the author and publisher as well. We didn't go into that so much did we but sort of where they might be coming from like, you know, a lot of websites that publish content have tools to sell, for example, but still publish brilliant content, but you can sort of kind of think, well, are they pushing this too or too much so so yeah, I think maybe to summarise, question everything, sort of not publicly, so don't go you know, just criticising people online or anything but in your own head, just sort of question things that are there maybe think the opposite like, yeah, how does that feel thinking the opposite of what it says? Yeah, I think sort of be curious and question things and your own mind. And also, if you do have questions as well, I think ask people. So I children ask loads of questions. And um, for some reason we stop when we're adults don't waste I still think if you sort of questioning things in a respectful way, and genuinely want to learn more about what the author is written about, or the publisher, then I think that's fine, isn't it?

Sarah McDowell: 30:35

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So many, there's so many times on this podcast, where like, our inner child, or like things that we used to do when we were younger gets brought up. Because yeah, it just applies itself, like, especially with like confidence and all of that stuff, which is a lot of what this podcast is about. But you're right. We ask questions a lot when we're, like younger, because we're learning about stuff. And we need to carry on doing that. Because you, you don't ever get to the point where you're like, Okay, I know everything. Because you'll never get there. And that's just because there's so much to learn about, okay, what's the best piece of career advice you've ever received?

Alex: 31:19

Isn't there's no piece of individual advice that stands out for me. But I'd say it's more about the personal relationships that sort of build up over time and the people I work with. So within that, there'll be lots of little tidbits of advice, and you know, really good support that comes from those people. So I'd more say, relationships over the years have been more important than any sort of specific piece of advice.

Sarah McDowell: 31:43

Nice. So sort of like who you've got in your network. And who used to.

Alex: 31:48

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I've just about 10 years salience now. I didn't take a career break. So I had to take, you know, get away from him for a while. But what Yes, some people I've worked with for 10 years. So really good relationships as a really appreciate. Yeah.

Sarah McDowell: 32:08

And relationships go a long way, don't they? And connections. Okay, yeah. Last question. Bit tricky. It's going to be hard, because the SEOs out there, I'm going to ask you to whittle it down to one. So if you would recommend everyone listen to the podcast right now, to follow one SEO person, who is that person, please?

Alex: 32:31

Yes, I should have scattered more names. And throughout the whole recording shouldn't say it's difficult to mention one. But the recent article I've read, I thought was really gorgeous by Genie Jones. So it was about entity SEO. I think there are a lot of good examples and the kinds of things we've been talking about today. So it's have links to other sources, shows examples, in her biography, shows why she's a good person to write the article. So you know, that sort of examples actually in the article as well of why it's a sort of trusted, trusted resource. And I remember remember, had Brighton SEO talk, I'm not sure if it was last year, or the year before as well on structured markup. But that was really good as well. I think entity SEO is something that should be talked about a bit more in the, in the SEO industry. So it's good that we've got Genie Jones to sort of give us these brilliant articles. And there are a lot of good tips in your article as well. So I suppose if your show notes as well, I guess.

Sarah McDowell: 33:34

Yes, yes, I was just gonna say we'll make sure that all of genies, where to follow them is in the show notes. So we'll make sure that our listeners can get access to that. Well, Alex, I'm afraid to say that just bring us to the end of the podcast. Thank you so much. This was such a valuable conversation, and I'm just gonna have to get you back. Because I feel like there's a lot more that we can talk about or go in depth on. So watch this space, folks, because Alex may be back with us. Before we go, where can people find you? So if they want to carry on the conversation, or they want to ask you questions, or whatever, to say hi, where are you?

Alex: 34:16

I'm not the most active person on social media. I finally joined Twitter a couple of years ago, but then Elon Musk started ruining it. So I'm Alex Harford SEO on Twitter, there's no T in Harford, sort of common misspelling. LinkedIn can follow me on LinkedIn. If you Google Alex Harford SEO, I will show up at least for the time being. So yeah.

Sarah McDowell: 34:39

Nice. Nice. Well, I'll make sure that your links are also in our show notes, and then people can find you. And yes, I would just like to remind you, again, like I said, at the beginning of the podcast, if you do enjoy what me and Tazmin are doing with the SEO mindset and you want to support us, you can do that you can give us a donation. So we have set ourselves up on buy me a coffee, which is a platform that allows basically creators so we enticement, our Creator creator of podcasts. Yeah, it allows people to accept donations from their listeners. So go and check that out. Link in the show notes. Thank you very much. And share. So if you have found and I'm sure you found this episode of Alex, so valuable, so helpful to share it, share it with your friends, family, if you've got pets even share it with them, you never know. But yes, right, Alex, let's say goodbye. Until next time.

Alex: 35:39

Thanks very much for having me. It's been good fun.