Pushing Back with Mordy Oberstein

Sarah: 00:00:06

Hello, everyone, and a very happy New Year. I hope everyone had a wonderful festive period and I want to thank you for joining us for another episode. While the first episode of The SEO Mindset for 2023 and of season four this week, I have a very special guest joining me. So I have Mordy Oberstein, and he's joining us to talk about pushing back on projects or tasks. Right, so, a really great and hopefully juicy topic. So, Mordy, I'm guessing most of you have heard Mordi, but those of you who don't know who Mordy is, he's the head of SEO Branding at Wix. He also serves as a consultant for SEMrush and sits behind the mic on multiple SEO podcasts, including the SERPs Up Podcast and Edge of the Web News, dedicated to SEO education. Mordy is one of the organisers of #SEOchat, and a popular industry author and speaker. So, a very talented man. Before we get into the episode, I just want to say a little reminder that if you do enjoy our podcast, you can support us by donating via Buy Me A Coffee. There is a link in our show notes and you can also subscribe so you never miss an episode by heading over to theseomindset.co.uk/listen. And again, that link is in our show notes. So. Hello, Mordy.

Mordy: 00:01:35

Hello. Thank you for that intro. I'm going to share with my wife when the episode comes out, so she knows I'm a very talented man.

Sarah: 00:01:40

I think you are a very talented man. And you can quote me. You can.

Mordy: 00:01:45

I will. I'm going to. I was on this podcast and they said I was a very talented man.

Sarah: 00:01:51

Do it and let me know how it goes.

Mordy: 00:01:54

I will.

Sarah: 00:01:55

I think it'll go down very, really well. Happy New Year, Mordy.

Mordy: 00:01:59

Happy New Year to you.

Sarah: 00:02:01

How are we doing? How is 2023 treating you so far?

Mordy: 00:02:05

So far so good. If only the rest of the year will go like the first few days, we're only five days in.

Sarah: 00:02:12

Yes.

Mordy: 00:02:13

I think we'll be all right.

Sarah: 00:02:15

Only on day five.

Mordy: 00:02:16

But I've stuck to my New Year resolution, which is I don't have one, so I can't break it.

Sarah: 00:02:24

Yeah, I used to set myself New Year's resolutions, but then I was like, I feel like I'm just setting myself up for a fail. So, yeah, I'm with you. It's good to have goals, right? And actually, the last episode of the podcast that me and Tasman did was about setting goals, so I think it's good to have goals and targets and those sort of things in mind. But I don't know. New Year's resolutions.

Mordy: 00:02:53

I don't want to start off stressed out.

Sarah: 00:02:56

Right? That's it. That's it. I mean, you spend the festive period because most people have a week or two weeks off, don't they? Like chilling out, relaxing. You normally get a cold or you get it but yeah, from going to that to then in a really stressful situation with all this stuff that you want to achieve, I'm with you.

Mordy: 00:03:20

You kind of want to ease into the new year.

Sarah: 00:03:22

Exactly. I mean, like we said, we're only on day five. We've only got another, what, 362.

Mordy: 00:03:30

We're good at math.

Sarah: 00:03:32

Two. I am so glad you finished that off because I that's not right.

Mordy: 00:03:36

That's wrong. I'm so good at math. I got a Rock 360.

Sarah: 00:03:43

We're around, we're estimating. We're estimating, give or take a couple of days, right? So when we first started talking about getting you on the podcast, you suggested a really great topic, and that topic was about pushing back on certain projects or tasks at work. And I thought, this is going to be a really good topic because I'm guessing a lot of listeners, myself as well as there's so many times where I've wanted to do this, but how do you do it or you feel awkward or should you do it right?

Mordy: 00:04:19

Yeah, I'm not sure I'm the best person for this. It is probably not the best way to start this because I've had moderate success doing this and I've stepped out a few landmines along the way. But I hope I can share my failures along with some of the success and you can avoid some of the mistakes that I made.

Sarah: 00:04:36

Well, that nicely. You can tell you're a podcaster because that nicely leads me into my first question of have you done this before? Then what is your experience of pushing back?

Mordy: 00:04:52

I work with George Wynn. He's the director of SEO editorial at Wix. And when he first joined, because I've known George for a long time, we had these big group meetings and they would end up being a lot of me pushing back on a lot of things. He's like, I did not know that you were doing those kind of things. I did not expect it out of you kind of thing. I don't know. I think a lot of it is personality, and that definitely plays a role in it. But if I feel passionate about something and I think that if someone's going to if we're going to be making a mistake as a team, as a company, or whatever it is that I don't like to just, okay, I'll just sit back and let it happen. I'd rather be proactive and preemptive and push back, even though it's mildly uncomfortable, because I think that this is a better thing for the long term health. And then there's the other issue that's like, on things like, what should we do here? Or what's the best way forward? But then there are things like someone's coming top down, giving you a task to do, and that doesn't really fit. Now, what do you do? Because that's like less of a discussion where we're trying to figure out the best way forward and not being very vocal and pushing back that we shouldn't do it this way. We should do it that way. Because I'm a stubborn Sob. When someone comes top down and they're telling you you need to do X and X does not sit well with you. Now what? And I'll give you like a case because look, it's pick your battles with those kind of things, obviously. And you need to not every hill is a hill worth dying on. Yeah, but there are definitely things I'm at risk of getting too specific about it. But I'll think of like two cases. One is when I first started at Wix, the first time, I don't know, it's like I'm not good at time. Clearly. I'm not going to time. I can't get number of days right in the year. I think it was like fall of 2020 or summer of 2020. And so I live in Israel now, and I'm about 7 hours. I'm exactly 7 hours behind or ahead of the East Coast in the US. So predominantly, or very often, my schedule at night is kind of annoying because I need to do this. I have to meet with somebody and they're on the East Coast and I have to meet with them in my evening hours. Or I'm doing a podcast, which I love, the fact that it's a UK podcast and we're doing it in the morning, my time. But there are a lot of times where my weeks are super packed in the evenings. I'm trying to juggle that and I'm trying to juggle my family and making sure my kids don't feel I'm always working, which I've gotten complaints, why are you always working? Kind of thing, which makes me feel like crap. And I remember he wanted to do some sort of video shoot for Wix and the production team was not used to working with people like me. The time very unique at Wix. It was usually you're an employee at Wix, you're there anyway in the office, which I wasn't. I lived very far away from the Wix office. And we'll just shoot in the morning. It'll be a whole day shoot and that's it. But I'm already doing a million. I've started to do less, but at the time I was doing a lot of podcasts and webinars and whatever. And it was fitting this in also. And it was going to go over to the evening hours because a whole long full day shoot, and we were interviewing somebody from the East Coast as part of it. So we had to do it later in the afternoon. And I remember saying, we're going to do it today on this date. I'm like, I can't. I already have like three interviews that week and a webinar and whatever. Whatever. This is too much. I don't think anybody ever told them that before. Like, this is too much about doing it. We do a different time. And it was a whole thing. I thought at that point, it was important to push back because, one, it was setting expectations because I expect to do a lot of things with the production team and they are wonderful people. I'm not saying they're not. I just think it was like growing Pains kind of things, which often, by the way, that's usually what it is. Other people aren't really aware of your situation or they're not really aware of how this usually works or how it's going to work with you. And once they get a sense of things, it kind of smooths out. But that initial step I thought was really important for me in that particular case, because it was one, it was just a really bad week and there's no way I was doing that to myself.

Sarah: 00:09:21

I just want to pick on something interesting that you said and about setting expectations, right? Because if you are always like a yes person, right, you're scared of saying no because you don't want to let the team down or you don't want to look bad, then that is setting an expectation. Right? And I think it's important to push back, because if you're pushing back, then you're letting your team, your boss, your company know how much you've got on and that you are busy and you've got to put yourself first. And I think it's scary pushing back. But if you do it from the beginning or start doing it, then your work and your team or your boss can kind of appreciate how much you've actually got on your plate. Because you don't have to be Superman. Wonder Woman insert another superhero. That's the only two that I can think of right now.

Mordy: 00:10:23

Aquaman.

Sarah: 00:10:24

Aha, Aquaman.

Mordy: 00:10:26

No one picks Aquaman as a loser of all superheroes.

Sarah: 00:10:29

Poor Aquaman, right? So, yeah, that's a really key and interesting point that I just wanted to pick out from that.

Mordy: 00:10:41

Yeah, and look, I feel so hard it's so hard to talk about this kind of thing because everybody is in a very different situation and you are kind of talking about a big deal. It's your livelihood. So I don't like talking absolutes about this because you could be in a situation. Look, I cannot lose this job right now. I don't know. My mom is sick, I'm paying her all the medical bills. I cannot lose this job. That is a different situation than your average situation. Like, okay, fine, I need a healthy work life balance, blah, blah, blah, blah. So every situation, I think, is different and you kind of have to know yourself and the situation. And I think it's not right to judge somebody who's not pushing back because you don't know where what they're in and what they're going through and what their context is. So when I say this, I'm keeping that in mind when I say this, what's the worst that happens? You realise that the environment that you're in is toxic and you should probably get out of there anyway. I've been in situations like that where I push back and it did not go well. Thank God I'm in a place now where when I do push back, it goes well for the most part, when I'm not acting like a jerk, which I have to hold myself back on. Sometimes I cannot imagine that at all. No, I mean, look, I get passionate. We're talking about SEO. We're going to talk about SEO the right way, or we're not going to talk about it at all. But hyperbole aside, if it's a situation where you're in a toxic environment so good. At least now you've figured it out. And now you can act accordingly. Assuming you don't really need that job, you don't want to get fired kind of thing.

Sarah: 00:12:26

If it doesn't go to plan, then say you do push back and it doesn't get received that well, or there's a bit of tension, obviously you said about okay, you got a question whether the job, the company is right for you, do you need to get out? Or does it always have to go to that extreme? Or are there things that you can.

Mordy: 00:12:50

Do before oh, yeah, totally. I'm painting a very hyperbolic picture. No, listen, there's always going to be tension. That's going to be there. There is tension. I think that living with the tension and being okay with it is part of the pushback process because, yes, there's tension now, but next week, is there still going to be tension after this all sorted out? No. Most people you're not that important to other people, where they're like, I'm holding a grudge for the rest of my life. It's like, the next week, like, yeah, all right, we've moved on. We're good. That's generally how it goes. So I think that tension is okay. And look, I will freely admit that sometimes I've gone about this a little bit too aggressively. And I think without realising it, I've heard people's feelings and that you have to go back and be like, hey, you know what? I did not mean to. I was just really upset. I felt really pressured, and I felt really stuck because I was in the situation where I had I felt like I had no escape other than a push back. So I barely pushed back a little bit too hard and you smooth it over. I think most people are generally understanding of that, and I think when you're pushing back, it's really important to be aware of your emotional state, because you could be real ticked and really upset, and that generally doesn't come out well. And understanding what's bothering you I don't want to be like Dr. Phil here, but understanding what's going on emotionally with you. Why is this bothering you so much? Why is it I'm feeling disrespected because I'm not respecting my time, my work life balance. I'm feeling cornered, I'm feeling stuck. Understanding all those feelings and kind of letting those feelings kind of permanent and exist a little bit makes pushing back easier because you're a little bit more aware of yourself and you know how to not go too far.

Sarah: 00:14:39

Definitely. And also going back to the point about pushing back, and it feels tense, like, we're human. Everyone's human at the end of the day. Right. People aren't. So if there's, like, a change or if people aren't used to people saying, no, right, or pushing back or saying, do you know what? That doesn't quite work well for me, then it's going to confuse them or not confuse them, but kind of like, hang on a minute, I don't normally get this reaction. Obviously, they need to process and work through and you need to give them time, don't you? I suppose, totally.

Mordy: 00:15:24

And I think that's something that maybe look at it that way. When people see that you're upset, maybe that's not always the worst thing. I understand there's probably some degree of dysfunction in that inherently, but assuming that the company values you and they're seeing that you're upset, that's going to trigger it should trigger. Like, when I see somebody upset on my team, I had a skill. I can tell they're really upset. My reaction is, oh, wow. I did not want to upset them. Okay, I need to take a step back. I need to rethink this. Let me talk to them or try a different plan. It's not I'm saying no to them. I'm going to put them back down and let's fight this out. It's more like, oh, wow, they're really upset. I want to make sure they're okay. So when you stand up for yourself, think that one of the possible. I know we always go negative in our thoughts about these things, but think positive that when someone sees that you're upset, it may be tense, but they're going to value the fact that they need to take care of you.

Sarah: 00:16:21

Yes, definitely. Right, Maudi, we are going to take a short break because yeah, I feel like it'd be good to give our listeners time to ingest what we've spoken about so far. Sit with it, meditate with it, have some time, and when we are back, we'll be getting into the best way that you can push back. So Mordi will be giving us some tips. We are back with part two. Mordi is still here. Did you have a good break? Did you sit with what we were talking about?

Mordy: 00:17:01

I did. I sat with it. I stood up a little bit with it. I walked around a little a bit, and then I sat back down with it.

Sarah: 00:17:06

I thought we were already sitting with it. Are you allowed to stand up and walk around with it? Yeah.

Mordy: 00:17:09

I know it's a new year. I could feel like I can do what I want. There's no experience anymore. 2023 is a year of freedom.

Sarah: 00:17:17

Oh, gosh, yeah, right. A year of freedom, let's hope, right? So I feel like we covered quite a lot in our first half of the podcast. So I think obviously we've talked about why we should be doing it, what we should do if when we push back, things don't go quite to plan. So what I want to get into more now is your tips. Okay. So I know that we touched briefly on it, but I think we can go a bit more into detail about if we want to start pushing back, how can we do it in a positive way. What kind of things have you learned from pushing back?

Mordy: 00:18:01

So I've learned most of this from failing and doing it the wrong way.

Sarah: 00:18:05

I mean, that's the best way to learn.

Mordy: 00:18:07

I've gotten much better at this, I think. I hope. I think the most important thing to do is when you're imagine someone's tweeting something or whatever social media platform you're on, or hopefully maybe you're not on one. Hopefully. But imagine the scenario and someone something really stupid that you don't like and it's not a random person. Something that you have to kind of interact with or deal with, whatever it is. And instead of coming right at it and hitting that keyboard and pounding away, you're like, you want to go watch an episode of whatever, and then you came back to it. It's sort of the same thing. There's going to be moments where, holy crap, I can't believe we have to do this, or I can't believe that we want to do this. We should be doing it totally differently. This is nuts. And I think it's important to and it can depend it could take a couple of days until you've sorted yourself out to the point where you're able to handle this well without getting too crazy. Because I know it is personal, obviously, but you kind of need to take the personal out of it just a little bit so you can deal with the personal in an objective kind of way. And sometimes, like we talked before, that can take a lot of emotional processing to figure out why it is bothering so much. Is this legit? Is it not legit? And really bounce it, play devil's advocate, bounce back and forth with it, play around with it, kind of sort out your own emotions with it. What exactly is bothering me here? So you can communicate that really well and then dive into it because you're going to come in and when you're still and it could take for me at least it could take me sometimes like a good couple of days to really understand the dynamics of what's happening here and then to be able to kind of pull back a little bit and take out the personal a little bit. And that helps a lot.

Sarah: 00:20:00

Okay, so take a breather before you go and start hammering the keyboard. And also communication. I get that how you communicate and how you get your message across is important as well.

Mordy: 00:20:16

Super important. And the only way you're able to do that is if you've sort of calmed down and you've kind of put up a little bit of a wall, like an emotional wall between what you're feeling and letting that out. That's what I'm trying to say, where you're sort of taking the it is a personal issue out because it's bothering you, but to make it not as personal, in other words, it's usually not the case that the other side is doing it on purpose to get after you and get at you. If you can sort of scale that down a little bit, that makes the conversation much easier to have. And then if you're aware of what exactly is bothering you so that you can communicate like this dynamic is not healthy for me because means that you need to a communicate the because, but also communicate what the dynamic is. Sometimes it's really easy. Like you want me to work at the million, you know, a million hours a week at, you know, 01:00 in the morning. Obviously they're not a million hours in the week, but I'm not good at math, so I don't know that. But that's an obvious case. Often it's not so obvious, it's a lot more nuanced. Imagine a fight with your partner or spouse or family member or whatever it is. It's a lot more nuanced than you're wrong and I'm right. Clearly.

Sarah: 00:21:30

Yeah, I hear you. Do you think also it's important to have a solution. So if you are pushing back, would you recommend like coming up with I can't do this, but how about this instead?

Mordy: 00:21:52

So that's always the easiest case.

Sarah: 00:21:54

Yes.

Mordy: 00:21:54

Yeah, right. If I can't meet now, but I can meet next week at whatever time. Okay, fine. They may not want to push it off, but usually those kind of things like yes, so absolutely have a solution where it gets a little more hairy, where it's more an overall dynamic isn't working, let's say. Or it's something where directionally speaking, you're not happy where things are going and it's less concrete and you may not have a solution. I personally wouldn't say you have to have a solution or don't push back because sometimes you don't know. Like you need a brainstorm thing. You need that other person to be able to brainstorm with you or the team to brainstorm with you as what a good solution is because you don't have all the answers. I don't have all the answers?

Sarah: 00:22:38

Who has all the answers? Who? Okay, so rather than always having to have a solution, then maybe say I can't do this right now, but maybe let's talk and find out a solution together. Right. And make it collaborative.

Mordy: 00:22:54

Totally. And it could take multiple conversations. Kind of my next tip, don't think you have to all get it all done in one shot. It's like tearing down the Berlin Wall. You take a sledgehammer. I'm not saying your boss is the Berlin Wall. Maybe they are, I don't know, but I wouldn't recommend defeating them either, if that's the case. But you chip away. You chip away. You chip away. You chip away and then eventually, okay, fine, some problems are kind of like that where it's not going to be one conversation. And also another tip, you need to know when to stop. When it's too much for you, when it's not going well, it's okay to say, could we talk about this maybe again? Maybe next week? I needed some time to think about it some more.

Sarah: 00:23:37

Okay, yeah, give yourself some time to yeah.

Mordy: 00:23:42

If you're feeling like you feel like that heat is rising and it's about to pop, it's a good time to take a break.

Sarah: 00:23:48

Yeah. And I suppose say you're like button heads with someone and you both can't agree, and maybe yeah. You just need to be like, right, let's take a breather, let's take a step back.

Mordy: 00:24:01

And you can even say, by the way, if you want. I'm not against playing a little bit of politics with it, because sometimes it's kind of what you have to do if you want to get out of the car conversation, because you need to calm the hell down before you kill somebody, and you need to speak to them next week about it. You can say, you know, I really hear what you're saying, I really want to think about it. Can we talk it again next week? And no one's going to say, no, I don't want you to think about what I'm saying. They usually say, okay, yeah, think about what I'm saying, and I hope you mull it over real well.

Sarah: 00:24:25

Yeah, good points, good points. You got any other tips about how or other things that you've learned?

Mordy: 00:24:36

I'm trying to think now. That pretty much sums it up. No, I would say sometimes it's going to be hard, especially if you're talking about because now that the world is a lot more global, it is something to take into consideration that culturally, sometimes things don't always align, and what's expected in one culture is not in another. And to give like that doesn't make any sense. But to them it does make total sense. And considering those things and really understanding the other side of it, which I'm not saying that means you have to give in. Sometimes you might need to frame it that way, say, Look, I understand that you're in Japan and I'm in Canada, let's say two random countries I just picked out of a hat in Japan. I understand that sometimes it goes this way. I'm not used to that because in Canada it goes this way and that you have to also be really careful not to put down to disparage somebody else's culture.

Sarah: 00:25:42

Yeah, you're doing that.

Mordy: 00:25:44

It's a very tricky one, but it's something that's okay to point out because it's very possible, and this is a general point, that the other person has absolutely no clue what the hell you're talking about as well as you've articulated it. They're not on the same emotional wavelength for whatever reason, whether it be a personal reason, a culture, whatever it is, and they have no idea what you're talking about.

Sarah: 00:26:08

So I suppose it's about having these conversations right. And understanding what's important and trying to understand that, and then you can come to a compromise together.

Mordy: 00:26:22

I suppose that's the ideal. You really want them to be able to understand how this is negatively impacting you. Because when you do that, I think most people are decent people, I hope, I think maybe possibly that they'll feel bad. They don't want you to be in pain and they'll want to figure it out with you. So I think the most important thing you can do is to communicate in a respectful, clear way that this isn't working for you and it's causing you pain for whatever reason. And we need to figure out a solution.

Sarah: 00:27:01

Yeah. And then that's where you hope that other person has empathy and they can empathise with you and understand. And like you said, they might not have even been aware. They're probably not aware of what you're going through or what you're feeling until you voice it. Right. No one's a mind reader. No one can predict these things without you actually saying, hang on a minute. Yes, wonderful. Wonderful. Right. Well, this has been such a great topic. I don't think this really gets talked about much, does it?

Mordy: 00:27:40

I don't think I've ever heard anything like this, I've never heard it on an SEO podcast before.

Sarah: 00:27:46

What can I say, Mordy? We are shaking things up here.

Mordy: 00:27:50

Nice.

Sarah: 00:27:54

So I got some couple little questions to wrap up. So what is the key thing that you want people to take away from this episode?

Mordy: 00:28:07

I think it's to respect yourself.

Sarah: 00:28:10

Yes.

Mordy: 00:28:11

To be okay with respecting yourself. And there's nothing wrong with that. Not only is there nothing wrong with that, that is a good thing that you should be doing proactively.

Sarah: 00:28:19

I always get that song in my head when someone says respect, I think about that Aretha Franklin song.

Mordy: 00:28:24

I'm not going to sing because I sound like Bob Dylan, because I have a cold.

Sarah: 00:28:30

Well, it will work for you. Yes. We need to, because if you don't respect yourself, how can you expect other people to? Right.

Mordy: 00:28:40

And you're just going to end up in situations where you feel you're being compromised.

Sarah: 00:28:45

Exactly. And one of the ways that because there's lots of ways that you can respect yourself more, but one way is by pushing back and letting people know when things are too much. Or you can't do something right now. And that's okay. You don't have to be Aquaman. Remember.

Mordy: 00:29:05

That's right. Don't have to be Aquaman. Only Aquaman could be Aquaman. Do all of the things he does, like swim and talk to fish.

Sarah: 00:29:13

I would love to talk to fish. Anyway, my second question, best career advice that you have ever received don't screw up.

Mordy: 00:29:26

And I was kidding.

Sarah: 00:29:28

We just said that it's great to.

Mordy: 00:29:32

Mix messages. I think it's such a subjective thing. I think when it comes to career advice, everything is subjective because there's different types of personalities and what works for one personality does not work for another kind of personality. I think the best advice, and I think there's a lot of caveats and limitations to this advice is be hungry. And that's just kind of work for me and my personality. And also with a lot of what I do, like, I need to find new opportunities for us. Like, so being proactive like that makes a lot of sense for me. So that's advice that makes sense for me. It might not make sense for you.

Sarah: 00:30:13

I love that. No one has ever given that as advice, but I love that be hungry, see what you can get out and taste stuff. I suppose in a weird way sounds.

Mordy: 00:30:28

Like very like, I know mountain lion.

Sarah: 00:30:30

Ish I fear that I made things weird, so I'm going to move on. Where can people find you? Where are you? Where can people hit you up? Have a conversation with you?

Mordy: 00:30:42

I work from home, so I'm generally at home, so you can find me there in my house.

Sarah: 00:30:46

Knock on his door.

Mordy: 00:30:47

Knock on the door. They may or may not answer. I generally tend to ignore people knock. I tend to ignore it until one of my kids answers it and like, okay, I guess they're here. I have to now do this. You can find me on Twitter, usually at Mordy Oberstein. I dabble on LinkedIn and I dabble dabble in mastodon.

Sarah: 00:31:07

Oh, yes, I've heard lots of people are dabbling now in mastodon, aren't they?

Mordy: 00:31:12

It's a place where you dabble. I'm not sure it's a place where you thrive, but not yet.

Sarah: 00:31:19

Maybe in the future.

Mordy: 00:31:19

Not yet. I don't know. It's a little bit weird, but it's nice. John Mueller is there and he's fun.

Sarah: 00:31:26

I love John Mueller. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining me and bringing such an important topic to light. Right? I really enjoyed talking about this. So thank you so much for being so open and transparent with me and our listeners.

Mordy: 00:31:43

Well, thank you for having me, letting me be transparent.

Sarah: 00:31:47

This is a safe space. And yes, I would just like to say thank you for joining us for another episode of the podcast. We do appreciate you tuning in. Again, that reminds her that if you enjoy listening to us and you enjoy our podcast, you can support by donating via Buy Me a Coffee. There's a link to that in our show Notes, and I would also recommend subscribing so you never miss an episode. So every time there's a new episode, you get a notification. So all you need to do is head on over to the SEO mindset co UK thisin, and then you can get subscribing link in the show notes for that as well. So, Mordi, we always end a podcast with a pledge. Are you ready to hear the pledge? And I'd like you. This is audio, but put your hand on your heart, please. And I'm going to pledge, okay? Feel these words. I am an SEO professional who prioritises mindset and personal growth and not just rankings, improvement, visibility, and algorithms. Do you feel that pledge?

Mordy: 00:32:59

I feel that pledge very much. Also, because ranking is a vanity metric, so I really feel that pledge.

Sarah: 00:33:07

Wonderful. Right, I'm going to have to end things. So thank you very much, Mordy. Thank you. Thank you and take care, everyone.